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[VERTAALD] How about minced, commercial prepacked meat ?

Vraag & antwoord 26 t/m 29 juni 2006.

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roger

[VERTAALD] How about minced, commercial prepacked meat ?

Berichtdoor roger » zo 25 jun, 2006 07:29

hi Tom.

In Holland a lot of people are feeding , what they call in Dutch : KVV.

It's prepacked, commercial, frozen, minced meat, minced bones and organ meat, ready to feed as a so called "well balanced and complete meal".

Most , or let's say all , of the Barf boards in Holland are supporting this way of feeding, by saying it's better than kibble, easily availiable, very practical and the best way to transfer your dog from kibble to the real stuff.

For them , its just the "raw" thing that works wonders.

Besides the fact that it's minced, nobody knows what's in the packages, because , what's in it, they call it " the secret of the black smith" . Stupid, isn't it, because if you know that dogs, cats and ferrets are domesticated carnivores , nature has no longer a secret concerning that anymore.

I think it would be great that You, as the starter and first whistle blower of the Raw Meaty Bones group, in the beginning of the nineties in the former century, could gives us Your idea about this very popular way of feeding in Holland and Belgium, so called K.V.V dog cat and ferret food.

By the way Tom, did You try the Dutch national raw dish for people, young raw herring called "maatjes" , with lots of chopped onions and a cool glas of Dutch beer ?

Have fun, and many thanks for being here, it's a great support for all those people in Holland and Belgium who are doing their best to tell dog- , cat- and ferrets lovers , what is REALLY important in feeding carnivorous pets, not only what's in the bowl, but how it's in the bowl.

Roger.

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Berichtdoor geer » di 27 jun, 2006 19:40

As I graduate tomorrow I need my time to prepare, but maybe one can translate my posting from an older topic so this can be taken in consideration before mr. Lonsdale answers this question. Funny to read the whole topic as well, as apart from Roger all administrators here were supporting this KVV, it was Jan. this year (viewtopic.php?t=1122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0). So, as this shows, serving KVV or supporting it does not mean that people cannot be taught to change their minds and turn to 'proper' raw feeding. Therefore, and yes here I am :D , I also do not understand why you have cancelled your German lecture. I think refusing to speak for an audience that are not yet 'proper' raw feeders is not very smart. That is the audience you should want to reach the most; those who feed mashed raw meet, or kibble, or BARF; not the ones that allready feed the way it 'should'. Anyway, here's my older posting. Hoping that someone can translate it:
--------------------------------------------------------------

Goed, ik verkoop het dus. Heb geen aandelen, maar welk wel in een pro-rauw dierenwinkel/dierenartsenpraktijk. Zelf stel ik zelf samen, met af en toe een KVV dagje.

Roger... als mensen bij mij in de winkel binnenkomen en ze vragen "Heppu ook Pedigree Paaaaaaal??", dan kan ik twee dingen doen. Zeggen:

"Dat hebben we niet, dan moet u naar de Albert Heijn aan de overkant, goedenmiddag"

of

"Dat hebben we niet, maar ik heb wel een hele goede tip: zelf samenstellen! Verderop zit een slager, daar kunt u dingetjes kopen, succes ermee he?!"

Wat denk je dat ze doen? Ik denk het eerste...

OF ik kan zeggen. "Dat hebben we niet, Pedigree, maar ik heb wel iets dat u heeel goed ter aanvulling of vervanging kunt geven hoor! Vervolgens leg je uit over rauwe voeding, je geeft mensen wat Carnibest, Energique, Duck, Bandit of wat-dan-ook mee (iets wat ze kant en klaar kunnen geven) en het 'zelf eten maken voor hond en kat- document', dat standaard naast de vriezer ligt. Tien tegen een dat mensen enthousiast terugkomen, want hij vond het zoooo lekker! En na een tijdje kan je daar heel handig op inhaken door te vertellen dat hij ook gewoon botjes mag, en hele lappen, en, en... Werkelijk waar, je wil niet weten hoeveel Pedigreeers of Eukanubaddicten ik via versvlees over heb zien gaan op volledig of gedeeltelijk zelf samenstellen.

Ik vind het heel makkelijk om alles maar in de schoenen van "die schurken van een KVV verkopers" te schuiven... Het lijkt wel alsof binnen de hondenwereld iedereen zijn eigen straatje wil schoonpraten en vooral heel hard wil jijbakken naar mensen met een andere opvatting. Daar hou ik niet zo van. Volgens mij wil iedereen in feite hetzelfde bereiken, alleen is de weg veschillend. En wijzen met een beschuldigend vingertje voegt daar in mijn ogen niet veel waardevols aan toe.
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Berichtdoor Ester » di 27 jun, 2006 19:52

geer schreef:Funny to read the whole topic as well, as apart from Roger all administrators here were supporting this KVV.


Dear Geer,

We have never supported any commercial food, and you know that so please don't tell lies :roll: Everywhere on this board you can find, why we will NOT EVER support a grinded product for several reasons. In the beginning we had a more generous opinion, but that's very different than supporting it :roll:
Now we have a very strong idea about it, and we have always been the only board who's telling the real truth: why you have to feed raw meaty bones instead of supporting a grinded product while you don't even know what's in it.

But maybe you missed all this, maybe you were to busy with other things or forums :wink:
Laatst bijgewerkt door Ester op di 27 jun, 2006 21:07, in totaal 1 keer bewerkt

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Berichtdoor geer » di 27 jun, 2006 19:59

Ester schreef:
geer schreef:Funny to read the whole topic as well, as apart from Roger all administrators here were supporting this KVV.


Dear Geer,

We have never supported any commercial food, and you know that so please don't tell lies :roll: Everywhere on this board you can find, why we will NOT EVER support a grinded product for several reasons. In the beginning we had a more generous opinion, but that's very different than supporting it :roll:
Now we have a very strong idea about it, and we have always been the only board who's telling the real truth: why you have to feed raw meaty bones instead of supporting a grinded product well you don't even know what's in it.

But maybe you missed all this, maybe you were to busy with other things or forums :wink:


Whatever you want. You are not the only board, but I don't think that's a relevant discussion. It used to be 'not-anti'(I mean there are admins who fed KVV themselves, so see where it can get you :wink: ), not it's the worst thing in the world... '

However, my message is not ment to plea for the 'naturalness' of KVV as that is not the point at all. I will try to translate my message from jan. No matter what you think is best, I think that you should also keep the way you convince people to it, the marketing, in mind. That's just being realistic, not commercial. And that's what my question is about.
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Berichtdoor geer » di 27 jun, 2006 20:15

Here is my translated message:


Okay, I sell it. I’ve got no stocks, but work at a pro-raw Veterinarian with a pro raw Petstore (and Yes Lonsdale, we also ‘sell you’). I myself am a raw feeder, with once a while a KVV day when I can’t feed proper raw food.

Roger, when people entre my store and they ask “Do you have Pedigree Paaaaaal???’, I can do two things. Saying:

“We don’t sell that, than you should go to the supermarket across the street. Good afternoon!”

or

“We don’t have that, but I do have a good tip. Make it yourself, raw! There is a buchter just around the corner, there you can buy all kinds of stuff! Good luck aye!”

What do you think they will do? People who havn’t got a clue, who have never fed anyting raw because kibble is safe and bones are dangerous?

What do you think they will do? I think the first...

OR I can say. “We don’t have Pedigree, but I’ve got something that’s allready complete and which you can give really good as a substitute! After that you explain why raw food is better, give them some complete mashed raw food (something they don’t have to do anything about themselves) and give them a document ‘making dinner yourself’, or trying them to buy a book on it... Nine out of ten come back enthousiastic, ‘because he liked it soooooooo much!”. They see the sheer enjoyment that their animals get on raw food, even though it’s minced. It’s just about getting them to get used to the whole idea of ‘raw’ and ‘natural’. And after a while you can perfectly well hitch in to that by saying that they can also eat bones, or whole pieces of meat. Or whole animals.

You don’t want to know how many Pedigree Pal-feeders or Eukanuba-fans I’ve seen switching to proper raw feeding THROUGH KVV.

I think It’s really easy, too easy, to point you finger at “those basterds of the minced meat maffia”, they’’re guilty of everyting.

It seems like everyone within the world of dog wants to be the guru, the one who knows it all and especially wants to blackmail others who think differently. I don’t pariculary like that. I think everyone wants to achieve the same goal, only the road to that goal differs. So what? Pointing at others with an insulting finger doesn’t really help to focus on the thing it is truly about, it only distracts the attention.
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roger

Berichtdoor roger » di 27 jun, 2006 21:28

Geer,

I can show You a dozen books, oldest one written in 1920 or something, the latest one written in the 90's of former century, all from different writers.
They all advise meat, organ and bones in big parts, underlining NO MINCED MEAT, it's not supporting the health condition of the carnivorus animal.

So what does this mean Geer , that all these writers, amongst them are vets and profs, are wrong , and that the minced meat compagnies are right ?

If you learn to drive a car Geer, the first thing You do is learn the traffic instructions, and immediately after that , You start to drive a real car, not a plastic toy or a dummy car saying "broembroem and tuut tuut......."

Wel it's the same with starting to learn feeding Your carnivorus pets, first You read a good book , or a few good books, and in no one you will find the advise of feeding minced meat, on the contrary. And than You start feeding the real stuff that they need, not first the minced pulp things.

Advising people to start with minced meat packages is a good stunt of the sales man and woman and the other pr boys and girls from those pu!ped stuff, because they now that 70 or mayby 80 % of those who started with it stay their and for them it's really "an easy money- meal" thanks to those barf boards who are supporting these stuff.

And thats's why, from the first day this group was started , the moderators and I , avoid those pulp sellers to interfer in this group.

because of all this stuff is maybe a little bit better than kibble, buth far from excellent for dogs, cats and ferrets, and their internal carnivourus system, and that's the way we want to feed , simply the best..

roger.

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Re: [question] How about minced, commercial prepacked meat ?

Berichtdoor Tom Lonsdale » di 27 jun, 2006 21:32

Hi Roger and all,

Thanks for magnificent support and thanks for the KVV (barf) question.

A question, in my view, that needs a thorough airing leading to a proper resolution.

Barf (American colloquial term for vomit) in all its guises was always a disgrace. Now it's grown to plague proportions. Maybe a little history lesson will help here :)

Back in 1947 Sir Frank Colyer, former President of the British Dental Association, published his paper: Dental disease in animals, British Dental Journal, 82 31–35 He knew the importance of a tough, chewy diet for dogs, cats and other carnivores.

Happily, although by a rather circuitous route, a small group of vets in Australia, (Raw Meaty Bones Lobby) eventually reached the same conclusion in the late eighties/early nineties. As vets we were aghast at our previous recommendations of kibble, canned junk food and minced meat offerings. http://www.rawmeatybones.com/No_3128.html

We saw a vulnerable public and their animals exploited by the junk pet-food industry/vet alliance.

The RMB Lobby set about doing what could be done at a scientific, media, administrative and political level to:

a. Disseminate sound dietary info to vets and the public at large involving a reliance on raw carcasses or raw meaty bones and a few table scraps.
b. Combat the junk pet-food industry scourge.
c. Combat the veterinary collusion and corruption.


For a time a vet called Ian Billinghurst joined the Raw Meaty Bones Lobby because as he wrote in an article in 1993:

Tom Londale has started the ball rolling. He has been a lone voice, crying in the wilderness. Now is the time for the profession to get behind this man and share his vision. Have a good look at what Tom is seeing.

At the moment he is seeing a [veterinary] profession that is blinkered, may be blinded and possibly hoodwinked into promoting products that are not worthy of our professional approval.

He is seeing that we are doing our clients a disservice every time we advise them to feed their pets commercial pet food.

He is seeing the importance of feeding an animal a diet which matches the one it evolved upon. In the case of cats and dogs, that means a diet based on raw, meaty bones.

He is looking into the future and seeing a veterinary profession with a clear vision and a clear conscience, advising their clients as only true professionals can, with honesty and understanding.

That understanding includes the very simple healthy and cost effective way to feed cats and dogs . . . without using commercial pet foods.


By 1997 Dr Billinghurst had a change of view and tendered his letter of resignation from the RMB Lobby and its campaign activities:

Where your role is confrontational, mine is one of steady attrition. A constant [and hopefully authoritative] presence. What I do best is show people how to produce healthier animals. It is my thing to write and lecture on these topics. I enjoy the intellectual challenge. Because of the 2GB show and the positive effect "Give Your Dog Bone" is having worldwide my credibility is rising. This credibility together with my quiet approach is making and will continue to make a worthwhile contribution. I am here to educate whoever will listen. Pet owners, vets and even pet food companies - if they are interested. It is not necessary; in fact it is counterproductive for me to participate in the politics of this debate.

If I am to be of use I need to be seen as outside the political arena. Someone who has the respect of the profession, whilst retaining strong views and unequivocal beliefs - supported of course by good evidence. My aim is to make a positive difference in this debate, and continue to make a living.


Soon after, Dr Billinghurst's thoughts about the requirement for raw meaty bones in a pet’s diet were modified and replaced. He started to make his 'living' with a series of recipes and concoctions for pulped products which subsequently became trademarked under the brand name 'Barf'. The Billinghurst book entitled 'The Barf Diet' was released in 2001.

These days there's a veritable plague of opportunists and get-rich-quick merchants who pay no attention to item a.) above. Fixing the junk cooked pet-food fraud and vet corruption mentioned in b.) and c.) holds no appeal for the niche marketers selling their packaged raw puke. Their comfortable niche depends on the towering edifice of multinational junk pet-food merchants and their vet allies. In the UK at least one puke merchant is a member of the Pet Food Manufacturers Association alongside Mars, Nestle and Colgate-Palmolive.

Of course any pet owner who stops feeding junk cooked food will see an improvement in their pet's health. If they happen to feed packaged barf they will likely, mistakenly attribute the improvement to the barf. It's in this way that barf victims become victimisers as they seek to encourage others to feed barf and so the plague spreads.

But it gets worse still.

With the advent of the barf range of recipes, concoctions and bottled supplements all manner of people gained licence to speculate about, comment upon and 'teach' pet owners how to feed dogs and cats.

Nowadays there's a traveling band of barf and other spruikers who deliberate in tiny detail about what, in their opinion, should go in the dog's bowl. Crucial items at a. b. and c. don't get a mention by the niche marketers of personalised pap.

For the $multi-billlion multinational pet food industry and the vet establishment it's business as usual -- untroubled by the petty skirmishing over the dog's bowl by the barf merchants and their promotional teams of pseudo-experts.

Something, indeed lots, needs to be done for the benefit of pets, pet owners and the wider community.

May I leave you to contemplate the what, when, where, how and who?

Many thanks.

Best wishes,

Tom
Ps. The maatjes are a tasty treat. I look forward to a cool beer after the last seminar on Sunday evening. Cheers, Tom

roger schreef:hi Tom.

In Holland a lot of people are feeding , what they call in Dutch : KVV.

It's prepacked, commercial, frozen, minced meat, minced bones and organ meat, ready to feed as a so called "well balanced and complete meal".

Most , or let's say all , of the Barf boards in Holland are supporting this way of feeding, by saying it's better than kibble, easily availiable, very practical and the best way to transfer your dog from kibble to the real stuff.

For them , its just the "raw" thing that works wonders.

Besides the fact that it's minced, nobody knows what's in the packages, because , what's in it, they call it " the secret of the black smith" . Stupid, isn't it, because if you know that dogs, cats and ferrets are domesticated carnivores , nature has no longer a secret concerning that anymore.

I think it would be great that You, as the starter and first whistle blower of the Raw Meaty Bones group, in the beginning of the nineties in the former century, could gives us Your idea about this very popular way of feeding in Holland and Belgium, so called K.V.V dog cat and ferret food.

By the way Tom, did You try the Dutch national raw dish for people, young raw herring called "maatjes" , with lots of chopped onions and a cool glas of Dutch beer ?

Have fun, and many thanks for being here, it's a great support for all those people in Holland and Belgium who are doing their best to tell dog- , cat- and ferrets lovers , what is REALLY important in feeding carnivorous pets, not only what's in the bowl, but how it's in the bowl.

Roger.
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