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[QUESTION] Raising pupy's

Vraag & antwoord 11 t/m 17 november 2007.

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[QUESTION] Raising pupy's

Berichtdoor Armellon » za 10 nov, 2007 11:18

Hi Mogens,

My last question to you is not realy about food, but I would like to hear your opinion about this, given your experiance in observing dog's.

I' m happy to read in your answers that you are an advocate for not only natural feeding, but also for treating our dogs in every way a more natural way.
I agree with you that nature is sometimes cruel in our eyes, and that we don't have to be cruel like this.
But on the other hand, if I see the way we prison our domestic animals into our human lives, the question raises with me sometimes if we, as humans aren't sometimes more cruel than nature can ever be.

My question is about raising young dogs.
When we look, for instance at the Azawakh, a breed thousands of years old and still very close to nature, we see that the father plays a big role in raising the pupy's.
As soon as the mother stops giving milk, it is the father that feeds the pupy's by vomiting half digested food.
Later, it is also the father that teaches the youngs there limits and communication in social behaviour.

What we see in domestic breeding is that the father hardly gets a chanche to play this role. Most of the time because he isn't there but also because the pupy's leave the mother by 7/8 weeks.

It is the common thought this is the best time to learn social behaviour with humans, but to be honest, I think this way the pupy's lack this other social learning, the one with other dogs, often to much witch results in a lot of behaviour-problems with dogs these days.

My question to you is what your oppinion is about this.

Thanks in advance for your answer
Brigitte

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Berichtdoor Mogens Eliasen » za 10 nov, 2007 20:44

Hi Brigitte,

Oh thanks....! Can you take a plane over here, so I can give you a hug? :-)

Not kidding - but I understand that finances might not allow it...

I totally agree. Breeding WITHOUT the male around is IGNORANCE, at best. Destruction of important social genes at worst. How can anyone, in their sane mind, really dare to pick a puppy from a litter, without knowing what half the genes are? Well, the only answer is that people accept the kennel clubs' judgments on that - but that is no better than asking a Toyota dealer about what car you should buy.

You hit the nail on the head with what you said here. This is a MAJOR topic of my video "The Dog's Social Behavior", which we currently are revising and putting on DVD (http://k9joy.com/DogsSocialBehavior - if you want to sign up for getting more information on the progress of this project).

The GOOD news is that this issue is subject to completely similar instincts as the Imprinting. Ever read Eberhardt Trumler's book "Mit dem Hund auf Du?" (only available in German) If not, and if you can read German, that book should be your bible for dealing with pups!

Because of this instinct being "modifiable" in the period 8-12 weeks, HUMANS can assume the father's role in a pack. And they should. But hardly anyone knows what that entails!!!

Trumler has studied this in great detail, and I have redone all his experiments with my own breeding - and he is darn right, on EVERYTHING. When you do this right, you bond that puppy to you for life, and there is nothing in the world that will come between it and you. If you don't, you end up with all kinds of behavioral problems later.... as most people surely also do!

But it is good for the manufacturers of electrical collars, and other cruel training tools, as people then resort to violence, because they missed that important socialization they did not even knew existed.

And those who know A LITTLE about it, misinterpret it, and think it is a matter of letting the puppy bond to OTHER DOGS! Sure, if you want you own relationship with that pup to become that of a spectator in a zoo, you will be doing just fine on that...

Modern dog training, even "puppy classes" does it all wrong. They do NOT try to do the only thing that is RIGHT: teach the pup to develop its hunting skills! It is all about obedience and control. Not at all about creating meaning in the dog's life. Which is the only way you REALLY can enjoy your dog!

But, for those who want to know what and how to train an 8-week puppy, please refer to my book "BrainWork for Smart Dogs" (only in English and Danish at this time... any Dutch translators out here?) - more info at http://k9joy.com/BrainWorkForSmartDogs. ANd those who want to understand this topic and the WHY behind it, please get the DVD when it is ready.

Cheers,

Mogens
Mogens Eliasen

Editor of "The Peeing Post" - for dog lovers who respect the dog's nature as domesticated wolf: Sign up at http://k9joy.com/peeingpost

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Berichtdoor Armellon » za 10 nov, 2007 21:33

hi Mogens,

As you know, time nor distance is not very relevant and I can wait for my hug ;-)
I will surely try to find the book of Trumler, the German language is no problem. As I will sign up for information about the progress of your poject.

The question I asked you here is running trough my mind ever since I conscious decided to vieuw a lot of every-day-matters that we accept almost thoughtless, from a new perspective.
But most of the time I mention this kind of thoughts to anyone, I'm runnig against the walls of 'knowledge' instead of finding open minds...
But wenn you find open minds, it always gives a lot of positive energie to go on... I'm almost sure you will recognize this ;-)

Thanks very much for your answers and we'll meet again ;-)
Brigitte

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Berichtdoor Mogens Eliasen » za 10 nov, 2007 22:33

Hi Brigitte,

OK, I will wait too then... You get a cyber-hug in the meantime:

(((((((((((Brigitte))))))))))

You are right, the problem is that people have forgotten how to THINK. They just allow commercial programming to replace cognitive abilities, and it happens automatically, if we are not very much on our toes to prevent it. TV is a major culprit here. All the commercial brainwashing is really ugly. But ALL marketing and promotion does this! In commerce, you do not want to give the potential customer ALL the information you have on a given subject; you only want to give ENOUGH for this person to make a BUYING DECISION in favor of your product! And you certainly do NOT want any information out there, which possibly could inhibit that buying decision.... such as the truth about the crap that is being promoted!

Until people at least ACCEPT THIS AS A FACT they have to resist, things are not going to change, and we will instead move even faster towards "Brave New World" or "1984", where we are reduced to nothing but consuming slaves.

Those walls of "knowledge" are all generated by those 5 billion dollars a year in marketing and promotion the pet food industry has available.

For my own sanity, I need to believe that the truth eventually will prevail - but we are sure not gaining any ground in the race at this moment.... Just a few weeks ago, the USA basically erased all sales of raw foods in the USA by demanding that the raw food manufacturers live up to the same production standards as the kibble manufacturers do - which is impossible without heating all food to kill the natural bacteria. The effect is that is now, as of a few weeks ago, that it is practically illegal to manufacture and sell raw foods for dogs in the USA....

Cheers,

Mogens
Mogens Eliasen

Editor of "The Peeing Post" - for dog lovers who respect the dog's nature as domesticated wolf: Sign up at http://k9joy.com/peeingpost

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Berichtdoor Jacksel » zo 11 nov, 2007 00:17

So if it isn't allowed to sell it for dogs, who is going to stop people from buying raw flesh for humans and then use it to feed the dogs?

Your other answer makes me wonder too. I do some training with my dog, obedience and agility. According to you that just shouldn't be done, because it isn't natural? My dog thoroughly loves doing agility (although she is being her stubborn self sometimes of course :mrgreen: ), so my feeling would be that, although it might not be natural for her, it is a pleasant thing to do... So what would be your opinion about these sports/hobbies (any way you would like to call them)
Groetjes Karin, Jamey, Yore!
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Berichtdoor Mogens Eliasen » zo 11 nov, 2007 06:28

The US law is crazy - nothing but an obvious, stinking attempt from the kibble manufacturers' side to kill their raw food competition through effective lobbying. But do not be surprised if something similar also comes to Europe! Waltheim-Effem in Germany controls 85% of the European market, and they have some serious influence on the EU regulative non-elected bodies that make your laws over there....

No government cares what people feed their dogs. They just want no scandals from PEOPLE eating dog food! It is corrupt. The whole political system. That's what is in it. In the USA, TRIPE is legally classified as HAZARDOUS WASTE and can only be handled by companies having a license to deal with such waste, using full chemical warfare suits!! It is insane...

About the training, then there is a huge difference between what you appear to THINK I mean when I say "natural", and what I actually mean. :-)

I don't think we differ very much when push comes to shove....

Agility is a great sport when used for the dog's benefit and not for competition - and it is indeed a natural way for the dog to learn to control its body! Who cares about the shape of the obstacles? Nature doesn't. And I don't. What matters here is that we use some very fundamental and very important instincts in the dog. Instincts that are a serious part of the entire complex of skills that are necessary to train and perfect the body controls, to apply for successful hunting.

Actually, in my book "BrainWork for Smart Dogs", you will find a whole section devoted to how you can teach dogs this kind of body balance for the purpose of stimulating their brains, and I most definitely include agility in the selected exercises!

The problem is, unfortunately, that many people do this kind of training as COMPETITION, ignoring what it is in it for the dogs - or NOT in it.... The problem is that, when the dog first has LEARNED an exercise well, there is no further purpose in training it at that level any more! At least, the dog gets no benefit from it - it might even be outright bored!

I have seen this so often that it makes me sick. Not only for agility, but for ALL kinds of competition training. If people instead would CONSTANTLY MOVE THE GOAL for the dog towards greater challenges, so it NEVER would reach "perfection", then you have a totally different situation that is MUCH healthier for the dog. But that kind of scenario is impossible to make subject to competition, because you cannot keep any two dogs at the exact same level!

It is a long story to explain all the details, but you will find them all in "BrainWork for Smart Dogs".

These articles give a quick introduction to the problems:

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/boredom.php

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/needs.php

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/obedience.php

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/problembehavior.php

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/brainwork.php

The essence is that, as long as the dog never knows what you are going to demand next on that agility course, then you have some fantastic value from it. But in the moment you start training towards COMPETITION, using and "fine-tuning" a prescribed (and predictable!) program, the value for the dog is GONE.

But, when the dog, half-way up a ladder, seriously can expect a command from you to turn around and climb back down again, same way as it came up, THEN you have serious value! Or make the dog do a "Down" exercise on the top of an obstacle it normally just runs over. Or do pirouettes on a balance board! You name it - but do NOT restrict your imagination, as long as you keep it within what the dog physically CAN do - and mentally is capable of LEARNING.

So, keep your membership in that agility club! But go there because you want to stimulate your dog's brain, and forget about "winning" - the competition element destroys the value for the dog. And for many people too, by the way! (What is it about being "number one"? What is wrong about being "the best you can"? Why do you care about someone else possibly being more advanced in certain areas? What does that have to do with YOU? Note: "You" can be ANYBODY - in this context, the English word is PLURAL - and translates in German to "man", not "du". I think it is similar in Dutch.)

The thing is that the dog's instincts are a mess. Literally. Nature does not care in what sequence they are activated. Ever seen a dog that is fine killing a ball by shaking it, and then, right after that, running after the ball when you throw it? Where is the logic? Chasing a "prey" that just got killed? It that dog nuts?

Not at all. Those two instincts (chasing and killing) are not "logically"" connected with each other, so the dog does not care about which sequence they are satisfied in, as long as they are SATISFIED, both of them!

So, stimulating the dog in a natural way to use its hunting instincts does NOT imply that we have to let the dog lose in the forest to chase deer!

But we are coming quite far away from food, aren't we? :-)

Our rescue word is that food should ALWAYS be as reward for training well done, so we really cannot separate the two... :-)

Cheers,

Mogens
Mogens Eliasen

Editor of "The Peeing Post" - for dog lovers who respect the dog's nature as domesticated wolf: Sign up at http://k9joy.com/peeingpost

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